Commission members were updated by the Chair on activities since the last meeting including briefing sessions with MPs, Peers and AMs.  The minutes of the previous session were signed off.

The First Minister Rt Hon Carwyn Jones AM attended part of the meeting to give oral evidence to the Commission.

At the meeting, Commission members discussed the evidence it has received on health including cross border arrangements.  The following gave oral evidence to the Commission on this issue:

• Mr Colin Ferguson, Director of Professional Affairs in Wales, WalesRoyalCollege of Surgeons
• Dr Richard Lewis, Welsh Secretary and Dr Philip Banfield, Chair of Wales British Medical Association
• Peter Meredith-Smith, Associate Director (Employment Relations) and Martin Semple, Associate Director (Professional Practice), WalesRoyalCollege of Nursing.

The following also attended part of the meeting to take part in an expert panel discussion:

• Alan Trench, Honorary FellowSchool of Social and Political Studies, University of Edinburgh
• Emyr Lewis and Cynog Dafis, UK Changing Union project
• Prof James Foreman-Peck, CardiffBusinessSchool

Members discussed final arrangements for their forthcoming public consultation events which begin in South East Wales on 21 May.  Further details on the events can be found on the Commission’s website http://commissionondevolutioninwales.independent.gov.uk/get-involved.

The next Commission meeting will take place on 24^th May in Cardiff.

Commission on Devolution in Wales
This Communiqué has been agreed by all members of the Commission present at the meeting.

Following the completion of the first part of its work on financial powers, the Commission is now reviewing the wider more general powers of the National Assembly for Wales and wants to hear the public’s views to help inform its work.

The Commission is encouraging as many people as possible to come along to its events in May and June and have their say on Welsh devolution.  A series of drop in sessions and public meetings are planned in communities all across Wales, in 14 towns and cities from Abertillery to Wrexham – further details can be found here:  http://commissionondevolutioninwales.independent.gov.uk/get-involved/events/

Paul Silk, Chair of the Commission, said:  “We want to hear the views of as many people as possible on the current Welsh devolution settlement, on how it is working and on how it might be improved.    The views we hear on matters such as whether there should be changes to the powers of the National Assembly for Wales or whether the UK and Welsh Governments are working well together for Wales will play an important role in helping us with our deliberations. We need to assess what is likely to command a wide degree of support and hearing people’s views is a vital part of that process.

“Over the next two months we will be holding public meetings in communities across Wales and I invite anyone who has an opinion on these important issues we are considering to come along and sharing his or her  views with us.  These events are the public’s opportunity to get involved and play their part in helping us shape Wales’s future. 

“There are of course a number of other ways to engage with us – as well as meeting us at an event, you can complete our new online questionnaire, you can join our online forum or you can just get in touch with us by email, telephone or letter.  We want as many people as possible to speak out and give their views and I would encourage everyone in Wales to get involved and join the debate.”

Notes

The following events have been arranged for May and June:

• Tuesday 21 May                   3-5pm                         Drop in session     

Chapter Arts Centre, Cardiff

• Tuesday 21 May                   6.30-8pm                   Public meeting Newport

Centre, Newport

• Wednesday 22 May             2-4pm                         Drop in session

Metropole Cultural and Conference Centre, Abertillery

• Wednesday 22 May             6.30-8pm                   Public meeting Shire

Hall, Monmouth

• Thursday 23 May                 10am-12pm              Drop in session Theatr

Soar, Merthyr

• Thursday 23 May                 6.30-8pm                   Public meeting

Gartholwg Community Campus, Pontypridd

• Tuesday 4 June                   10am-12pm              Drop in session

LlandudnoTown Hall, Llandudno

• Tuesday 4 June                   6.30-8pm                   Public meeting Catrin

Finch Centre, Wrexham

• Wednesday 5 June             10am-12pm              Drop in session

Penrhyn Hall, Bangor

• Thursday 6 June                  6-7.30pm                   Public meeting

Pierhead, Cardiff Bay(sponsored by Rosemary Butler AM, Presiding Officer of the National Assembly for Wales)

• Tuesday 25 June                 12.30-2pm                 Drop in session Coleg

Powys, Newtown

• Tuesday 25 June                 6.30-8pm                   Public meeting National

Library of Wales, Aberystwyth

• Wednesday 26 June           10.30am-12pm         Drop in session Torch

Theatre, Milford Haven

• Wednesday 26 June           6.30-8pm                   Public meeting Halliwell

Centre, Carmarthen

• Thursday 27 June               6.30-8pm                   Public meeting Grand

Theatre, Swansea

The events will be open to everyone who wishes to attend. People can just turn up on the day but to allow us to get an idea of numbers we would be grateful if people could confirm attendance by emailing us (commissiononwelshdevolution@walesoffice.gsi.gov.uk).

What could changes to the devolution settlement mean to you?

 Wednesday 17^th April 2013

Pierhead Building, Cardiff Bay

A joint event between the Bevan Foundation, Positif, Public Affairs Cymru, WCVA, and the UK Changing Union Project

[Check against delivery]

Thank you for inviting me to your conference today. I am grateful to all the sponsors of this event – the Bevan Foundation, Positif, Public Affairs Cymru, the WCVA and the UK Changing Union Project – for hosting this event and for bringing together such an impressive range of people.

I very much welcome your interest in our first report on tax devolution and borrowing.

We are now engaged on the second part of our remit looking at how well devolution is working more generally and how it might be improved. I understand this is the main focus of your conference today.

Perhaps I could explain briefly the background.

Our Commission was established by the UK Government in 2011, following a coalition commitment to establish for Wales a commission like Scotland’s Calman Commission on improving their devolution settlement. I am pleased to say that our Commission was not only supported by the UK Government and Welsh Government but by all the political parties in the Assembly.

Our approach to our work in both Part I and Part II is guided by a desire to be consensual; to be evidence based and listen to views across all of Wales and beyond; and to base our recommendations on principles, including informed by the international evidence.

We published our report on Part I in November. Our work on that is now complete. The Assembly has endorsed our recommendations and we now look forward to seeing the UK Government’s response in the spring.

The main thing that struck us in Part I was that Wales appears to be unique in the world in having legislative and spending powers but no tax and borrowing powers. We felt that this was anomalous and that Wales should have some tax and borrowing powers.

Our key theme was reflected in the title of our report. Along with more empowerment goes more responsibility with a view to using financial powers to create a stronger Wales. But this should be subject to not undermining either the UK Government’s macro-economic responsibilities, or the fiscal transfers which underpin the successful UK fiscal and monetary union.  

One message that we heard very frequently was that the top priority for Wales should be improving economic growth. We agree. But our report argued that constitutional reform will strengthen growth – we see no conflict of priorities here.

Perhaps I could elaborate on this point.

The desire to maintain and improve Welsh competitiveness was important in informing what we did not recommend. We did not recommend devolution of a whole range of taxes where we felt devolution would increase tax complexity and avoidance and distort behaviour. Our report echoed the cautious message we heard from business. People want a simpler not a more complex tax system. They are concerned about tax avoidance and unfair tax competition.

So we did not recommend devolution of corporation tax, unless devolved in both Northern Ireland and Scotland, capital taxes, and excise duties. Nor did we recommend devolution of VAT, which is very much a EU based tax, and National Insurance, which is linked to the GB wide social security system.

We did however recommend the full devolution of business rates, so that rates paid in Wales are set, collected and spent in Wales; the devolution of some smaller taxes including stamp duty land tax, landfill tax, aggregates levy and APD for long haul flights; a sharing of the income tax base and the power to set income tax rates for each tax band; a power to introduce new Welsh taxes; and some powers to prudently borrow for capital and current spending.

We recommended that the income tax changes should be subject to a referendum; and that this package should be taken forward alongside the intergovernmental talks on the so called fair funding issue.

We also recommended a range of other changes such as improved information on Welsh public finances, and developing the Welsh Government’s finance department into a strong Welsh Treasury.

Looking ahead, we are keen to hear what other modifications we should recommend in Part 2 to the Welsh devolution settlement to make Wales more prosperous.

We are looking at whether further powers should be devolved to Wales or indeed if any powers should be sent back to Westminster. And we are looking at other ways in which the devolution settlement might work better for Wales, for example if there is scope for devolved and non devolved institutions to work more closely together.

We have already received quite a lot of evidence, although not a great deal yet from business in relation to Part II. As you would expect we have received some excellent evidence from the Bevan Foundation, the WCVA and the UK Changing Union Project.

In the interests of transparency we have published the evidence on our website.

We have also recently visited Scotland and Northern Ireland, as we did for Part I.

In addition, as for Part I we are considering the international evidence, although I should stress that we are not planning to make lots of trips abroad!

But we are planning to make extensive visits around Wales to ensure we hear the views of people throughout Wales. And we plan to have another opinion poll as we did in Part I.

We are approaching all this with an open mind and are still very much in listening mode. We have made no decisions at this stage.

But it is perhaps worth reflecting on what the evidence so far is telling us.

There seems to be a reasonable amount of consensus that our recommendations should be based on principles. And the sort of principles which people support are along the lines of promoting accountability, clarity, coherence, effective governance and stability.  

Some people would like to see some further devolution of powers. Among the areas mentioned have been policing and justice including the issue of a separate jurisdiction, broadcasting, transport, environment, energy and other issues. There is also the question of whether a conferred or reserved powers model is more appropriate.

Some people also think there is scope for the devolution settlement to operate more effectively , for example in the ways in which institutions work together and the ways in which cross border issues are handled.

However other people are not convinced that devolution has so far delivered better public services and economic development, and want the Assembly to focus more on making better use of its existing powers. In this context, economic growth remains a top priority.

And others see a case for modifying the settlement in the other direction and returning powers to Westminster.

So there are a variety of views. However there is some consensus that there are core powers such as over defence and foreign policy which should remain at UK level.

Against that background, I look forward to hearing your views during the morning.

Thank you for listening to me and I look forward to your questions and comments.

Commission members were updated by the Chair on activities since the last meeting and the minutes of the previous meeting were signed off.  Members reflected on their successful visits to Scotland and Northern Ireland.

At the meeting, Commission members discussed the evidence received on the way the National Assembly for Wales works and elections in Wales.  The following attended different parts of the meetings to give oral evidence to the Commission:

• Rosemary Butler, Presiding Officer of the National Assembly for Wales;
• Sir Robert Rogers, Clerk to the House of Commons and Paul Evans, Principal Clerk of the Table Office;
• Prof Laura Mc Allister, Wales Study Group of the Study of Parliament Group and Stephen Brooks and Owain ap Gareth, Electoral Reform Society Wales; and
• Kay Jenkins, Head of the Electoral Commission’s Wales Office

Members discussed their forthcoming events and opinion poll.

The next Commission meeting will take place on 3^rd May in Cardiff.

Commission on Devolution in Wales
This Communiqué has been agreed by all members of the Commission present at the meeting.

The Commission has met the Deputy Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament, the Minister for Parliamentary Business, the Leaders of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party and the Scottish Liberal Democrats, a member of the Labour Shadow Cabinet, broadcasters, academics and Reform Scotland.

Chair Paul Silk said:  “Our visit to Scotland during Part I of our work provided us with an invaluable insight into fiscal devolution in the United Kingdom.  We have returned to Scotland to hear first hand about how devolution more generally has evolved and is operating in the country.

“Whilst we are reporting on devolution in Wales, we need to be mindful of developments elsewhere within the United Kingdom.  Next week, we will be visiting Northern Ireland and meeting key organisations and individuals involved in devolution there.  What we learn through these visits will no doubt help inform and enrich our work.”

Chair Paul Silk has thanked the individuals and organisations across Wales and elsewhere in the United Kingdom who have taken the time to submit evidence to the Commission.  The Commission has received over 100 submissions.

Paul Silk said:  “The Commission is committed to operating transparently, and today we have published on our website the responses we’ve received to our Call for Evidence.  We’ve had interesting and thought provoking evidence presented to us and I would like to thank everyone who took the time to get involved and share their views.

“We will now be studying the evidence in detail to inform our work over the coming months.  I hope that publishing will help stimulate further debate.

“While our Call for Evidence period has closed, we continue to value any further contributions put forward to us.  In particular, people – including those who have not already sent in their views – may want to react to evidence given by others.  Whether you agree or disagree with the evidence we have had so far, we still want to hear from you.

“Over the next few months there will be further ways to engage with us, including forums and a questionnaire on our website, and a series of public events across the country.  We invite all views to help us produce evidence-based recommendations which better serve the people of Wales.”

The Chair updated Commission members on activities since the last meeting and the minutes of the previous meeting were signed off. 

At the meeting, Commission members received a number of research and technical papers and also discussed final plans for their visits to Scotland and Northern Ireland at the end of March.  Commissioners will meet with key stakeholders in each country to hear their experience of devolution in the United Kingdom.

The Commission reviewed the evidence it has received following the closing of its Call for Evidence period and expressed thanks to everyone who had taken the time to present their views.   To date, over 100 submissions have been received and Commission members agreed to publish the evidence received on its website next week.

Commission members discussed further plans for its next stage of public engagement, including public events and the commissioning of an opinion poll.

The next Commission meeting will take place on 12^th April in Cardiff.

Commission on Devolution in Wales
This Communiqué has been agreed by all members of the Commission present at the meeting.

Commission members were updated by the Chair on activities since the last meeting and the minutes of the previous meeting were signed off.  Members noted the recent Welsh Grand debate on the Commission’s first report ‘Empowerment and Responsibility’.

At the meeting, Commission members received a number of research papers and in-depth presentations on constitutional arrangements elsewhere in the UK and overseas and on previous similar Commissions.

A panel discussion was held with leading academics and former civil servants on the UK’s different devolution settlements.  The panel comprised:

• Sir Nigel Hamilton on Northern Ireland;
• Professor Thomas Watkin and Philip Davies on the Welsh settlement; and
• Professor Jim Gallagher on Calman and Scotland.

Members also discussed their future work programme, proposals for public events across Wales and their forthcoming visits to Scotland and Northern Ireland.  Further details on the public events will be released in due course.

The next Commission meeting will take place on 8^th March in Cardiff.

Commission on Devolution in Wales
This Communiqué has been agreed by all members of the Commission present at the meeting.

The Commission launched its Call for Evidence on its review of the wider powers of the National Assembly for Wales in November, immediately after reporting on the financial powers of the Assembly.  It is seeking the views of people, businesses and other organisations across Wales on how the current Welsh devolution settlement is working in practice.

A copy of the Call for Evidence and a summary of the current settlement are available on its website:  http://commissionondevolutioninwales.independent.gov.uk.   Interested parties are asked to submit evidence by 1 March.

Chair Paul Silk said:  “This is an opportunity for people, businesses and organisations across Wales to play their part and help us shape Wales’s future.  The Assembly has been in operation for over thirteen years and we will soon be approaching the two year anniversary of the referendum on law-making powers.  It is therefore a good time to pause and reflect on how the settlement has been working.  We are asking for people’s experience of devolution, and whether the division of responsibilities between the Assembly and Parliament is right.

“During the first part of our work, the evidence we received played a vital role in helping us reach our recommendations.  The next stage of our work will be no different.  That is why it is important that people give us their views by responding to our call for evidence.  Our website hosts a similar forum where people can join the debate and share their views with us in a less formal way.  We will also be holding public meetings across Wales in the coming months so there are plenty of ways for people to get involved in the discussion on Wales’s future.   I urge people to take the time to share their experience and views with us on this important issue.”

Notes
The Commission’s remit for Part II is:
To review the powers of the National Assembly for Wales in the light of experience and to recommend modifications to the present constitutional arrangements that would enable the United Kingdom Parliament and the National Assembly for Wales to better serve the people of Wales.

In undertaking Part II, the Commission is required to:

• examine the powers of the National Assembly for Wales, and in particular:
  - the boundary between what is devolved and non-devolved;
  - whether modifications to the boundary should be made at this stage; and
  - any cross-border implications of such modifications;

• consult widely on any proposed modifications to the current boundary;
• make recommendations on any modifications to the settlement likely to have a wide degree of support; and 
• consider and make recommendations on how best to resolve the legal and practical implementation issues from those modifications. 

The Commission has been asked not to consider the structure of the National Assembly for Wales, including issues relating to the election of Assembly Members, during Part II.

The Commission will report on Part II in the Spring 2014.

The Commission is currently reviewing the devolution settlement and whether any modifications are needed to better serve Wales.  A copy of the Call for Evidence can be found on the Commission’s website: http://commissionondevolutioninwales.independent.gov.uk

Interested parties and individuals are able to submit evidence by 1 March.

Paul Silk, Chair said:  “The start of the New Year has always been seen as a perfect opportunity to look ahead and reflect.  Our Commission has been asked to look at how the current devolution settlement serves Wales and its people.  We want to hear the views of as many people as possible from across Wales and I urge everyone to share their views with us.

“During Part I of our work, on fiscal powers, we placed great importance on listening and gathering evidence.  We are determined to build on this for the next stage of our work in order that we can come up with a package of recommendations which will not only be in the interests of Wales but are likely to command support.  That is why it is so important that people engage with us.  My message is simple – start the New Year by making your voice heard on this important issue.”

Notes

The Commission’s remit for Part II is:
To review the powers of the National Assembly for Wales in the light of experience and to recommend modifications to the present constitutional arrangements that would enable the United Kingdom Parliament and the National Assembly for Wales to better serve the people of Wales.

In undertaking Part II, the Commission is required to:

• examine the powers of the National Assembly for Wales, and in particular:
  - the boundary between what is devolved and non-devolved;
  - whether modifications to the boundary should be made at this stage; and
  - any cross-border implications of such modifications;

• consult widely on any proposed modifications to the current boundary;
• make recommendations on any modifications to the settlement likely to have a wide degree of support; and 
• consider and make recommendations on how best to resolve the legal and practical implementation issues from those modifications. 

The Commission has been asked not to consider the structure of the National Assembly for Wales, including issues relating to the election of Assembly Members, during Part II.

The Commission will report on Part II in the Spring 2014.